Isn't it just easiest if the bill is split? Then no one owes anyone anything and later choices are all made on choice.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Kate Tribe:
Yes, that's where I lean as well. In this case, "traditional" has become backwards.
You can't start an equal relationship with inequality.
The compromises I've made in the past have included: 1. She kicks in a large tip. 2. I pay for everything but she pays the next time (she had no $ on her). 3. I paid because I'd invited and it was only later decided that the evening had marked our first date.
Christine
· 10 months ago
Normally, I say whoever asks the other out pays, but the person asked should cover the tip, or out for drinks or coffee, whatever afterwards. Only ONCE I paid when I didn't ask, reason being that I enjoy eating (No, I'm 5'8" and 151 solid gym lbs.). I ordered an app, salad (included), & dinner, & when the waitress asked if we wanted anything else, he rushed to say no, we didn't. I said, "excuse me, I'd like x,y,&z. Thanks." So now I'm annoyed. I had every intention of paying half, never said so. He goes to the bathroom. I got the check, paid the whole thing, PLUS tip. He comes back, says he better get the check. I told him I already got it. OMG, the fake act I got, you have no idea. Dumped him the second we left. Needless to say, I married a guy who can keep up with me, and no, he isn't 550 lbs., lol!
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Christine I wonder why he said no? Good call on dumping him. We typically spend more time eating each week than we do having sex (except for those rare and crazy weeks) so your cut-and-dried focus on food makes sense to me!
Sometimes you've just got to eat! I love you ladies who work out all the time and eat like starved Vikings. You're an inspiration to me not only to visit the gym more often but to really enjoy eating!
=)
Diane Whiddon-Brown
· 10 months ago
Yeah, I've heard of the "four date" rule, supposedly, if he pays for four dinners, then he 'deserves' some sex.
Yuck. If I were in the dating world (married, 11 years) I'd definitely insist on going Dutch, just to keep any obligation or resentment out of it.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Dianne: The only date rule I know about is my "three date rule" that says you shouldn't spend any sort of complex time with somebody until the third date.
I'm delighted by your answer. It gives me hope that things are actually improving.
Gabrielle
· 10 months ago
I always offer to pay my way - I'm more than happy to let him pay if he offers.
If it's the "paying him back later" question...
Dinner is Dinner - Drinks are Drinks .. hell! Manalo's are Manalo's!
Sex is -err- off the table.
All my wanna-be sugar daddy's know this.
maggie
· 10 months ago
I think that while the man ought to pay, he is not obligated to (it's just polite) and the woman should always offer- not assume- and be willing to accept splitting the bill graciously if that's what he seems to want or need to do. If he wants to pay and she feels uncomfortable about him paying she will probably insist more than passively and he should agree to split it, otherwise (and in most cases), he should thank her for offering and buy her dinner or a coffee.
I used to never want the man to pay for the same reasons as your friend. Many men are wrong-thinking about this- where they think of it as an investment in potential sex rather than a kind gesture to honor the time spent together regardless of where it leads. I just don't tend to run into cads like the former as much anymore and therefore I have changed as I've gotten older (late 30s now) And frankly, I will graciously split an expensive dinner bill, even when the man expressly invited me out, but I am not (as) likely to want to date someone who isn't thoughtful enough to spend even a nominal amount of money to take me out (if you're broke invite me to coffee..it's not the cost it's the principle.)
The tricky thing for men is they don't want to set a model of paying for everything every time, which is quite understandable, but the unwillingness for a man to simply pay $2-$12 for that first coffee or glass of wine, tells me he will never open the door for me, he will always give himself the better chair, the bigger slice, whatever. He is always out for justice. In this man's mind if women want to be considered equal they shouldn't EVER expect a shred of chivalry or favoritism.
Please. I love a little chivalry, and would venture to say that is true of many/most women. I don't expect it constantly, but a little goes a long way. It might be old-fashioned for such a new fashioned woman as myself, but a man with conviction, kindness and backbone doesn't only not have hangups about spending a little money on me- it wouldn't even cross his mind not to. Sounds complicated, but it's not.
Have good intentions and a generous heart. If she's digging for gold you shouldn't be dating her. You picked the wrong one. If she is like me, she just wants to feel special enough to warrant a romantic meal or a simple coffee on the first date. And if she's like me- she'll happily buy you a beer next time and the bill will usually be split, but she'll like that you still buy sometimes. Damn. She might even make you dinner for two with groceries she bought. Happy Valentine's Day! Now what do you think?
Seth
· 10 months ago
@gabazebra =) I figured as much from you. What a delightful bowl of feisty pasta you've turned out to be! =P
@Maggie: Buying a cup of coffee or a glass of wine is, for me, at a different level. I'd buy some dude I just met on the street a coffee just because I enjoy his company and I volunteered to do so. I think it's fair to approach casual dates with women the same way. You've said it perfectly!
Arié Moyal
· 10 months ago
I believe you should each pay your own way. That way there's no obligations, expectations or hard feelings on either end and as you get more serious you can work out something that works for you.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Arie: Have you ever been on a date and run into an issue for your belief? What did you say?
maggie
· 10 months ago
Curious- How would you treat dinner differently from wine or coffee? Should a date be treated as casually as the random guy? I really kind of feel that if the guy asks a woman out and then chooses some expensive place, it's not very considerate to the woman to have to spend $50 on her own dinner in order to spend time with you. I don't know. I guess just don't invite a woman to a fancy dinner unless you really want in your heart to treat her to it with no strings- just the pleasure of a shared meal with her. Otherwise buy her a coffee like the dude on the street ;-) Or split the bill on a good but divey place- that is less of a crime because your proposal to hang out doesn't cost her $50. ;-) I guess it depends on the person you're going on the date with too, how casual you want it to be. It makes sense that there are different levels for different levels of interest.
Kate Tribe
· 10 months ago
@seth in response to your question to Arie. I was just having a drink with someone recently and was going inside for the bathroom, and said I would come back with 2 drinks. They were offended. Said they could pay their own way. I was so shocked I replied: I'm sure you can, I wasn't questioning that, you can get the next round. There wasn't a second date.
maggie
· 10 months ago
A relatively new male friend (only a friend- he's married) of mine asked me what I was drinking and then came back with that drink. I didn't offer to pay him- just said thank you. Later I saw him talking to some people and his glass was empty. I asked him what he was drinking. He told me and I brought him one back. He said thank you. We skipped all the bullshit and just each bought the other a drink with no expectations of payment. There is something right about that to me. I just like that. This whole notion of no one buying anything for anyone else and being suspicious of someone for wanting to buy you something is slightly sad to me now, although if you had asked me 10 years ago I was all for strictly independent payment for the same practical reasons you and some others list here. There is something nice about the gesture of buying someone a drink. I guess that's what you were saying about the buying some random guy a coffee to spend some time chatting because he's interesting. It is sort of the same deal in a way.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Kate: precisely, pay your own way right out the door and into the street! Allowing somebody else to buy you something, give you a compliment, or offer constructive criticism all take strength. But it is so very worth the effort! You're a smart lady.
@Maggie: In my circle, I typically observe a "invite-pay" rule that works because some of my friends simply can't come up with the money to go out for sushi or a few drinks on a Tuesday night. Instead of worrying about it and being awkward about finances, the people with money do the inviting and as others come into cash, they ask as well or simply have house parties, etc. It works because, above all, we love spending time together.
I love buying people drinks but I want them to take their pants off (well, not necessarily everybody) because they enjoy me, not in response to the taste of margarita-induced guilt! =)
Susie Blackmon
· 10 months ago
Oh Seth, let me fix you a champagne grape ring and see how much fun we can have with that on our first date.
Melanie
· 10 months ago
For me, I see a first date as something that two people do because they both want to get to know each other better. I know that's a little idealistic, but in a lot of cases, that's how it happens. If both people are emotionally invested in finding out about each other, all other things being equal (both people are carrying cash, both people think it's a date, etc.), why not share the financial investment? It can go on like this until you know more about each other...say, if you find out that the girl is way into chivalry, etc., or the guy doesn't pay for meals but gives fabulously lavish gifts. :)
If you're on the hunt for a trophy wife/husband, or if you know for a fact that the other person expects you to pay, the rules are a bit different, of course.
Hammer
· 10 months ago
I try to keep my total bill to $20. This is done mostly on date selection, but sometimes unforeseen things happen and unnecessary money gets spent at which point I make sure it's clear that it's not something I'm taking care of. No matter what the bill, I do expect the woman to offer to pay her half, which I will gracefully turn down, or maybe just ask her for a generous tip. I'm actually more likely to eat the bill if I don't plan on calling her again so that I don't feel quite as bad.
Maran
· 10 months ago
I would offer to pay but make it very clear that it's a "no strings attached" deal. And if she wants to pay her part i'm letting her.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Susie: Let's see! =)
@Mel: I really like that you make a place for those who like a bit of chivalry to engage in such interactions after a footing has been established for the relationships. Building a sustainable and rewarding relationship has that play, that flexibility, that works around what one person really gets a kick out of and the other person is happy to supply.
So if I'm looking for a trophy wife, I suppose I'd have to just pay for everything all the time, eh? =)
Margot
· 10 months ago
I think the person who proposed the date should pay. It's so silly to split hairs over this stuff. You can certainly breach the topic at the onset, but it's never a good idea to wait until the bill arrives. I can't imagine expecting someone to pay their 'half' if they were asked out by you. A date is a trial run, if you ask someone to take the risk, you should be willing to foot the bill. If it leads to further dates, you discuss the logistics of finances then. I think a shared responsiblity depending on your financial standing is fair, if you ask someone to go somewhere expensive and they don't make a lot of money, again I think you should be willing to foot the bill. It's easiest to discuss it openly and not be weird about it later!
I'm married, so we always split the bill these days.
Cheers, Madge
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Hammer: Yes! Especially in the current financial climate where many people who make their livelihood from tips are struggling, throwing that extra in as a tip can make a real difference. I think you've hit on an easy compromise in which the woman offers to pay and expects to pay, but allows the guy to pay if he insists.
I'm guilty of paying for entire dates just so I could get out and be gone...but you say that you do so so you won't feel badly about not seeing her again. Isn't that the same type of mentality that my friend was displaying in avoiding drinks from guys?
@Maran: Having it be clearly "no strings attached" is, I think, the progressive way to do it.
@Margot: If you check out my most recent reply to Maggie, you'll find that we have similar feelings about "dating" friends, but I disagree with you on the first date. I don't think you should ever be dining at an expensive restaurant for a first date or putting yourself in the type of situation in which you have invested more than you would for any other stranger you've just taken a fancy to. If you stick with inexpensive simple ideas for the first date, the money disappears as the issue and both can pay as equally-contributing adults.
Lauren
· 10 months ago
I think it depends. Some men will insist upon paying, thinking that is the gentlemen approach. It makes no difference to me. I don't mind paying.
Jane Wonder
· 10 months ago
On a first date technically the person who asked should really pay. For me, this will always mean the guy because I will wait for him to ask. Honestly though, I'd prefer for the man to step up no matter what.
Which is not to say I expect that or don't offer or won't pay in the future. Every good female dater knows exactly how to handle this. In case you don't know, let me explain...
The check comes. The woman should automatically reach for her purse and say something like "Let me help you with that." This gives the man options. If he didn't intend to pay the entire check, he can accept the offer without losing face or having to ask for money. If he did intend to pay, he can say "No, I've got this one." The woman should then ask ONCE (and only once ladies) "Are you sure?" If he waffles at all, offer money. This next bit is important now. If he says he's sure, look him directly in the eye and thank him for your meal.
This works on dates one and two. If a man picks up both of those checks you should corner the check and pay it in full on date three.
For the record, the second date is a gray area in the land of paying. I would gladly snatch a second date check... it all depends on the man and the dynamics of the date as to whether or not that is successful.
I do not believe that buying someone dinner means they owe you anything. Especially if said someone has offered to pull their own weight. And I wouldn't allow anyone to guilt me into anything on those grounds. Honestly, we're dating not hooking. And the only way a man can convince you you owe him one is if you let him. Employ a little backbone against the jerks, and enjoy the chivalry of the gentlemen.
GwynneL
· 10 months ago
It's been a long time since I dated, but even then, and if I do date again, I followed the whoever asked pays rule. Even now when my [ex] Husband and I go out, if it was my idea, I pay. If it was his idea, he pays. It works out just about even with us. Though in the past, I've dated guys where I ended up paying regardless of who asked, and that ends up being the last date. I simply don't ask someone out if I don't have the money to pay for both of us, let alone pay for myself, and I would expect the same from someone else!
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Lauren: You say you don't mind paying, but do you offer to?
@Jane: “we’re dating, not hooking”! You’ve just written the progressive guide for ladies on who pays for dates. =)
@Gwynne: I use the same system with most of my friends. I outlined it in more detail above in my reply to Maggie but the ask-pay system works very well especially when there is a large disparity in incomes between the two people on a date. In the past, the guys were the only ones really making money so it made sense for the guy to always pay. Now that things are on their way to being a bit more even, I’m happy to rework a system that has gone on long enough!
Madrisa
· 10 months ago
Both should share the cost. First date is getting to know each other. I agree with earlier comment that you can't start an equal relationship with inequality.
I'm a feminist who believes that *everyone* should hold doors for each other, etc. Why should doing gracious acts be reserved for men?
The corollary is, why should men bear more of the financial burden? If he has lots more money, have the first date in a place where she can afford to pay her half. If the relationship goes somewhere, than the various dimensions can be negotiated in the process.
Melanie
· 10 months ago
Seth: I can only picture you shaking your head scornfully at one of those "Real Housewives of [ritzy place]" ...
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Madrisa: Precisely my point in telling Margot that I don't think people should be frequenting expensive places on first dates. Perhaps it's from my upbringing, perhaps something else, but I've long believed in holding doors for "people" and not just a specific gender!
@Mel: Now why would you think that! Everybody has a set of behaviors that make them feel better about who/what they are. But yes, I don't like the idea of being stuck in a H2 with a bunch of disenfranchised trophy wives. =)
Rachel
· 10 months ago
Maybe I am old school, but if the person invited you out then they should pay. But if you both agree to go out on a "date" then it should be split down the middle. That is not to say you cannot invite a guy out, then again I think I should pay. It makes sense don't you think?
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Rachel. Yes, it makes sense. What do you mean by "agree to go out on a date"? Doesn't that typically involve somebody asking someone else out?
bobby
· 10 months ago
Well, I just blogged about this recently as well. The only thing I can say is that: 1. I don't necessarily believe in rules of dating. 2. Communication should pay the bill.
If this, and it probably is, is on the minds of a couple that go out, then they should discuss it beforehand and get any discomfort out of the way.--hey, maybe THIS can be a rule of dating? Communication.
Other than this, I really don't know as circumstances are never quite the same for all people all of the time.
p.s. I have given this answer without reading any previous comments (I didn't want to be influenced) :)
zechariahaloysius
· 10 months ago
The guy should always pay, Seth... Oh, wait, forgot, gay guy here... Actually, the answer is very simple. The person who invites the other out for a drink should pay for the first one. After that, it's usually customary for the other person to pick up a drink if things are going well. If there's dinner The same goes for dinner unless it was unplanned. An exception to this rule would fall under nobles oblige. If the asking party can truly afford to do so and does enjoy the others company, then it is okay. Anyone who, in this day and age thinks a drink or a dinner is worth sex isn't the right person to be dating anyway. They will find the appropriate whore somewhere else, eventually.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Bobby: You, sir, are a purist! =) I agree with you on communication. It can be close to impossible to have open and honest discussions about sensitive topics when you've just met somebody. That's when handy-dandy rules are nice to have around.
@Zechariah: I read your comment...then looked back at the first line and laughed out loud. haha! Genius! Is there such a thing as an appropriate whore? =)
Pam Robertson
· 10 months ago
In th region where I live, which has suffered from being economically challenged for blinking ever, the servers automatically ask if "everything is on one bill" before they print it off. When I first got here I thought it was really weird - now it is expected. It's a very handy technique when you reach that point where you want to make a statement about paying or not, or if neither of you made a committment either way to begin with (which is my preferred way of setting things up). In this day and age, I think we should go out expecting to pay our own way. Romantically, it's nice if whoever asks pays, but just not that realistic. If this troubles folks, my suggestion would be to get to know each other and do some communicating before your commit to dinner. A cup of tea at somewhere fun ought to cover that nicely, and even if it's a fancy tea, the investment is small.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Pam: Precisely! I've posted previously about my belief that a few afternoon casual dates should come before anything truly time-consuming. Of course, that brings in new complexities in making sure everybody knows when it's "hanging out" and when it's "dating'.
Yes to fancy tea! =)
tom
· 10 months ago
Beautiful, here is where i make my mark.
If you are serious with someone, go ahead and pay for them but in terms of dating, that is different.
For guys, too many of you buy dinner and gifts for women, all for the pleasure of hoping she will approve of you and accept you.
See the thing is this, you are pretty much paying on hoping to get sex, go get a escort instead.
I mean why waste your hard earned money or someone you may never see again?
Henie
· 10 months ago
It's simple for me...
If I really like the guy, then I pay the entire bill! Not only does this create an element of surprise and intrigue on his part it secures another date. When he insists on paying then I tell him that the next one is definitely on him thus creating a guarantee for the next escapade!
And if I don't like the guy...well, I just pay for my half and get the hell out of there pronto!:)
Seth, I always enjoy your posts! They are so much fun like a ping-pong ball!:)
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Tom: Why even waste your easily-earned money on that! =) I learned early on that being extremely sweet and paying for everything got me nowhere quickly.
@Henie: What, exactly, do you do with ping pong balls that makes them so much fun, Henie? =P Paying the entire bill can be a strange experience to spring on most guys. Let's do more of that! =)
Ms. Single Mama
· 10 months ago
I just went out on a date last night and because he totally invited me out to dinner I let him pay... he also grabbed that check so fast I didn't have a chance (which was super, super nice and upped his sexy count).
But afterward I paid for our drinks at the bar.
Typically if I have no interest in the guy at all I insist on splitting the check.
Penelope
· 10 months ago
I offer to split the bill, but won't kick up a big stink if he wants to pay for it all himself.
Annie
· 10 months ago
I usually pay for my own, or pick up the entire tab. I've met too many people who feel obligated to give or take sex in exchange for a meal and/or drinks.
Example: an Iraq vet once told me that he was "date raped" by a girl, because she bought dinner and drinks and so he felt like he had to sleep with her. I couldn't help myself, I flat out told him "That's not rape, that's feeling obligated based on silly social conventions. Sleeping with someone because they bought you something seems closer to prostitution than rape."
/rant
Seth
· 10 months ago
MSM: That seems like a good compromise for him to get dinner and you to pay for drinks later...but would it have been different had you intended on seeing him as more than a friend in the future?
Penelope: As long as you're offering with a genuine willingness to chip in if you need to, I think that's solid area.
Annie: I'm not sure why a guy would ever tell somebody that. I can understand a guy telling one of his buddies that because he's embarrassed about sleeping with a certain girl...but to tell a girl that? Piggish.
I've been bought dinner and drinks by a woman before and I don't believe she got anything sexual out of it. We were just having fun and she'd warned me ahead of time that she was paying so I suppose I could have opted-out if I'd wanted to.
I love your rants, Annie. Don't end them! =)
Kelly
· 10 months ago
In today's economy, whomever can afford it, to hell with pride! :)
maxsilver
· 10 months ago
I think it depends on a few things. If it is a dinner, then whoever asked should pay. If it is a lunch, I think it is more acceptable to split. If a number of drinks are bought then whoever asked should get the food bill, but split the drink bill. If the one who didnt as is dead set on splitting, then have the other pay the tip
Seth
· 10 months ago
Kelly: Haha! Not a matter of pride if you've got it settled ahead of time. I say we use the economy as an excuse to focus more on communication and less on expenditures during dates! =)
Max: Nice plan! I'm a fan of lunch dates simply because you can actually get to know somebody without much of the stress that's attached to evening dates!
Rashaun Integral Apparel
· 10 months ago
I think who ever initiates the date or brings up where to go. If I asked my date to go White Water Rafting for her first time, I would assume I would be paying and vice versa!
Seth
· 10 months ago
Rashaun: If you go whitewater rafting on first dates, you must be quite the time! The ask/pay policy is what I do with my friends. It makes sense to do the same with the people I'm hoping to be even more than friends with!
Gorillamonk
· 10 months ago
Go dutch, its a lot easier.
Apples
· 10 months ago
I've decided, dutch can be complicated if one has cash the other doesn't or so forth. If its just going to be one date then dutch I will offer. So if I like something depending on the situation I will offer to pay totally, if he insists or just pays before I offer I will tell him Thank you and inform him next time we go out its on me. Or something like that.
I am a bit of a prude I well not be having sex on the 1st 4th -or whatever the "rules" say- date.
And I don't want even the slightest sort of that guilty/obligated feeling. But I am pretty blunt so chances are I will have scared them off by the second date HAHA!
Seth
· 10 months ago
Ap: Nicely said! It's good to be straightforward. If you scared them off, then it's not like they're somebody you'd be able to be yourself around anyhow, yes?
Guilt isn't any fun at all. I'm with you on that. Unless it's because you had 18 slices of chocolate cake...in which case I might feel guilty, but I'll laugh about it! =)
SusanMazza
· 10 months ago
The person who asked. But you should never assume so I think the person invited should always offer (and mean it!)
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Maggie: I have had the best dates while getting coffee or grabbing something in one of those "dives" you mention. It's really supposed to be about the people involved, as far as I'm concerned. You know? When we're 85 and tired of talking to each other, lets go to fancy places to eat, okay?
@Susan: That's the kicker. You've got to mean it! I owe you dinner at some point!
Jim Brochowski
· 10 months ago
I've been kicking this one around and enjoying the replies. Some of them are sort of troubling. i.e. Is there really some expectation of sex for the spending?
I'd hardly call that true intimacy which I think is sad.
I haven't been in the dating game as it were for quite some time, but I think whoever asks should pay, or if it's kind of a mutual thing, or there are mitigating factors of income the bill should be split.
I know I came into the relationship with my wife with no money whatsoever. She was doing okay.
We figured it out and built the rest together.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Jim: I agree with your summary of missing intimacy. You say you initially had no money but your wife had some. How did that affect where you went on dates/what you did?
You were able to figure things out and make them work. That counts for a lot!
Jim Brochowski
· 10 months ago
Well, in the interest of full disclosure I have to say that my wife and I moved in together having never gone out on a date.
That being said, we spent a lot of time together at home cooking dinner, drinking wine, walking the dogs and such.
We didn't go out a lot, and then only to places that were inexpensive like putt-putt and such.
It sounds corny, but it didn't really matter what we did or where we went as long as we were together.
Maybe that doesn't sound corny after all...
bobby
· 10 months ago
Seth, you are the first to tell me that-PURIST? I like it :) You see the delema then? Most agree that communication is very important, yet we all can't agree on something fairly simple like who pays on a date and why.
I think the usual "Who invites pays" is a good general rule that can, if we all understand this rule, resolve the question and yet still allow wiggle room.
"Hey Seth, I know you invited me but I really would like to pay for this date, ok?"
No matter how you answer the problem is solved.
Bobby the purist :)
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Jim: No, it doesn't sound corny at all! You really moved in without dating..roommates?
Jim Brochowski
· 10 months ago
@Seth, Not just roommates. We slept in the same bed from day one.
We said we'd be roommates if it didn't work out - ride out the lease so to speak. I think that was more something we said than what we actually believed would happen. What can I say, we just knew.
We had both been engaged to other people and "had to" move out of our respective residences. It just made sense to take the leap.
I've been told there's a screen play or book in there somewhere. Just not a project I've tackled yet.
I'm enjoying this little trip down memory lane though. Thanks!
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Jim
I'm enjoying getting to know some of the crazy stories that have made up your life so far!
It takes a lot of heart to go with that "hunch" and leap into a relationship feet-first with your heart open.
You have my respect!
Mike Masters
· 10 months ago
When I first moved to Japan i had the delightful experience of having the girl pay or go dutch. I think this was because it is so expensive for young people that it impossible not to do so! Not only that but Valentines day if a holiday for men!! (the next month is white day, a reverse holiday) This seeming flip flop of male female roles was a whole lot of fun but I found myself wanting to revert to my chivalrous American upbringing. I would pay for the first day and we would rotate. I agree with Tom that a lot of men pay in hopes of having her "owe" them and hopefully get sex but not all and it does not mean I will stop paying for the first date! Unfortunately the man paying really is a part of western culture and to not role with it and make the best of it is as bad as putting ketchup to your sushi.
kelli
· 10 months ago
LOL this underlines my post on how confused we all are as a country on who pays for the date. I'm just big on being gracious, thoughtful and aware... many of your readers were aware of uncomfortable pauses, situations and expectations and handled it graciously and THEN made the decision on whether or not they were going to go on date #2.
Personally and not as someone who writes a dating blog -- I look for generosity, respect and intent when deciding on a second date. --Any guy who expects nooky because he bought something is off my reservation. Immediately. --I'll admit to insisting on the split only when I am decidedly not interested in the guy. --And when interested, I usually find a way to pay for something -- a coffee afterwords, the movie tickets, the taxi fare... something to acknowledge that I do not expect a free ride but am interested in seeing where it goes. --The only rule I follow is that whoever initiates the date needs to expect to pay. And yes, I have asked guys out in the past AND payed for the whole date. --And Seth, yes, I also almost ALWAYS offer to split. If he accepts, I do tend to assume that it was not a love connection and we are both on to the next.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Mike
Yes, I see how it is a "part of Western Culture" but like many aspects of our culture, I don't believe it is something that needs to continue.
The argument that something is a part of a culture has allowed us to neglect needed changes in many parts of the world to the detriment of millions and what should be our own deep shame.
@Kelli:
As long as there's a genuine offer to split the check, I think the point has been made that nobody is being bought.
However, you and many others say that you insist on splitting the check when you don't like the guy. Do you think this is a common enough practice to actually go in "the book of hints"?
Seth
kelli
· 10 months ago
as far as the insist-a-split hint -- you may have something of a keeper there. I'm not the only girl I know who does the same thing -- I think what links us is a desire to not ever lead someone into having the wrong impression. Some girls will just let the guy pay and never intend to return his call when he asks her out again. I just know that I would never want to be treated that way... so I don't treat others that way.
Guys -- if you are arm wrestling a girl for the bill, you may have a problem... I'm jus' sayin'...
Paul
· 10 months ago
Nobody will read this, because there are so many comments but... As a man, it has been my practice to split the dinner bill and then pay for coffee and dessert afterwards.
This seems to work because it allows both of us to participate in a dating gesture without making me resentful of paying for an expensive dinner and her feel strangely obligated.
And yes, if you are going to claim that women are equal to men, you can not have your cake and eat it too!
But in my mind, paying for the dessert and coffee is a necessary nod to the "tradition of Western culture" in which we unfortunately live and date in.
Seth
· 10 months ago
Hi Paul!
To the contrary, being last on the list is usually just as good as being first when it comes to having your comment read!
Paying for desert and coffee, just as you would for a friend or co-worker, is not a question of equality but simple nicety. I think many of us put a lot less weight on who pays for coffee and dessert than we do on who pays for dinner.
I like your plan. It allows you to start on even footing without any "debt" on either side while giving a bit of room for your old school charm to shine through in the end. Good for you! =)
Bob
· 10 months ago
The answer is simple: the person who asks pays.
I have had no problem letting women pay when they asked me out. As a male, I don't feel any less manly if I allow a woman to pay. In fact, it is flattering and feels nice to be treated once in a while. :-)
That being said, when a woman asked me out, if I accepted, I let her know upfront that a simple walk would be sufficient. That way, she wouldn't feel obligated to spend a lot of money to impress me.
Seth
· 10 months ago
Bob: I've had exactly that happen to me and it was a lot of fun!
I like how you make it clear that you need not be impressed right from the start. I think we'd all do very well to do that. =)
Nakia
· 10 months ago
For me, I think whoever asks should be the one to pay (in most situations).
I've done a fair amount of asking myself and have no problem paying for dinner, drinks & tip.
If I'm not having a good time or I'm just totally uninterested in the person, I always suggest going Dutch.
Seth
· 10 months ago
@Nakia
"suggesting" going Dutch seems to be emerging as a common way of telling a date they suck.
Which is too bad because it blurs the line between independent and uninterested. It also reinforces my feeling that the pay-for-play mentality is far more deep-seated than most are willing to admit.
Neal
· 9 months ago
You don't take her to dinner. The dinner date is too strong a signal you're interested and blows the chance for any mystery. You do something free or low cost, low expectations, easy for both, and of limited duration. Have tea or coffee for an hour, then bolt. This is to screen, build trust, and build attraction. It's all about escalation. Start small then build to consummation. I would actually avoid the dinner date until after you have consummated. Then whoever asks pays. Or better yet, cook her a meal. It doesn't take much to learn a few sure fire recipes that will make you seem like an expert bachelor.
Seth
· 9 months ago
@neal - spoken like a true pick-up-artist.
I'm a bigger fan of actually admitting to interest and building a relationship on a foundation of trust instead of churning through a fuck-and-leave machine because I'm scared of loving and losing.
All Comments
Yes, that's where I lean as well. In this case, "traditional" has become backwards.
You can't start an equal relationship with inequality.
The compromises I've made in the past have included:
1. She kicks in a large tip.
2. I pay for everything but she pays the next time (she had no $ on her).
3. I paid because I'd invited and it was only later decided that the evening had marked our first date.
Sometimes you've just got to eat! I love you ladies who work out all the time and eat like starved Vikings. You're an inspiration to me not only to visit the gym more often but to really enjoy eating!
=)
Yuck. If I were in the dating world (married, 11 years) I'd definitely insist on going Dutch, just to keep any obligation or resentment out of it.
I'm delighted by your answer. It gives me hope that things are actually improving.
If it's the "paying him back later" question...
Dinner is Dinner - Drinks are Drinks .. hell! Manalo's are Manalo's!
Sex is -err- off the table.
All my wanna-be sugar daddy's know this.
I used to never want the man to pay for the same reasons as your friend. Many men are wrong-thinking about this- where they think of it as an investment in potential sex rather than a kind gesture to honor the time spent together regardless of where it leads. I just don't tend to run into cads like the former as much anymore and therefore I have changed as I've gotten older (late 30s now) And frankly, I will graciously split an expensive dinner bill, even when the man expressly invited me out, but I am not (as) likely to want to date someone who isn't thoughtful enough to spend even a nominal amount of money to take me out (if you're broke invite me to coffee..it's not the cost it's the principle.)
The tricky thing for men is they don't want to set a model of paying for everything every time, which is quite understandable, but the unwillingness for a man to simply pay $2-$12 for that first coffee or glass of wine, tells me he will never open the door for me, he will always give himself the better chair, the bigger slice, whatever. He is always out for justice. In this man's mind if women want to be considered equal they shouldn't EVER expect a shred of chivalry or favoritism.
Please. I love a little chivalry, and would venture to say that is true of many/most women. I don't expect it constantly, but a little goes a long way. It might be old-fashioned for such a new fashioned woman as myself, but a man with conviction, kindness and backbone doesn't only not have hangups about spending a little money on me- it wouldn't even cross his mind not to. Sounds complicated, but it's not.
Have good intentions and a generous heart. If she's digging for gold you shouldn't be dating her. You picked the wrong one. If she is like me, she just wants to feel special enough to warrant a romantic meal or a simple coffee on the first date. And if she's like me- she'll happily buy you a beer next time and the bill will usually be split, but she'll like that you still buy sometimes. Damn. She might even make you dinner for two with groceries she bought. Happy Valentine's Day! Now what do you think?
@Maggie: Buying a cup of coffee or a glass of wine is, for me, at a different level. I'd buy some dude I just met on the street a coffee just because I enjoy his company and I volunteered to do so. I think it's fair to approach casual dates with women the same way. You've said it perfectly!
@Maggie: In my circle, I typically observe a "invite-pay" rule that works because some of my friends simply can't come up with the money to go out for sushi or a few drinks on a Tuesday night. Instead of worrying about it and being awkward about finances, the people with money do the inviting and as others come into cash, they ask as well or simply have house parties, etc. It works because, above all, we love spending time together.
I love buying people drinks but I want them to take their pants off (well, not necessarily everybody) because they enjoy me, not in response to the taste of margarita-induced guilt! =)
If you're on the hunt for a trophy wife/husband, or if you know for a fact that the other person expects you to pay, the rules are a bit different, of course.
@Mel: I really like that you make a place for those who like a bit of chivalry to engage in such interactions after a footing has been established for the relationships. Building a sustainable and rewarding relationship has that play, that flexibility, that works around what one person really gets a kick out of and the other person is happy to supply.
So if I'm looking for a trophy wife, I suppose I'd have to just pay for everything all the time, eh? =)
I'm married, so we always split the bill these days.
Cheers,
Madge
I'm guilty of paying for entire dates just so I could get out and be gone...but you say that you do so so you won't feel badly about not seeing her again. Isn't that the same type of mentality that my friend was displaying in avoiding drinks from guys?
@Maran: Having it be clearly "no strings attached" is, I think, the progressive way to do it.
@Margot: If you check out my most recent reply to Maggie, you'll find that we have similar feelings about "dating" friends, but I disagree with you on the first date. I don't think you should ever be dining at an expensive restaurant for a first date or putting yourself in the type of situation in which you have invested more than you would for any other stranger you've just taken a fancy to. If you stick with inexpensive simple ideas for the first date, the money disappears as the issue and both can pay as equally-contributing adults.
Which is not to say I expect that or don't offer or won't pay in the future. Every good female dater knows exactly how to handle this. In case you don't know, let me explain...
The check comes. The woman should automatically reach for her purse and say something like "Let me help you with that." This gives the man options. If he didn't intend to pay the entire check, he can accept the offer without losing face or having to ask for money. If he did intend to pay, he can say "No, I've got this one." The woman should then ask ONCE (and only once ladies) "Are you sure?" If he waffles at all, offer money. This next bit is important now. If he says he's sure, look him directly in the eye and thank him for your meal.
This works on dates one and two. If a man picks up both of those checks you should corner the check and pay it in full on date three.
For the record, the second date is a gray area in the land of paying. I would gladly snatch a second date check... it all depends on the man and the dynamics of the date as to whether or not that is successful.
I do not believe that buying someone dinner means they owe you anything. Especially if said someone has offered to pull their own weight. And I wouldn't allow anyone to guilt me into anything on those grounds. Honestly, we're dating not hooking. And the only way a man can convince you you owe him one is if you let him. Employ a little backbone against the jerks, and enjoy the chivalry of the gentlemen.
@Jane: “we’re dating, not hooking”! You’ve just written the progressive guide for ladies on who pays for dates. =)
@Gwynne: I use the same system with most of my friends. I outlined it in more detail above in my reply to Maggie but the ask-pay system works very well especially when there is a large disparity in incomes between the two people on a date. In the past, the guys were the only ones really making money so it made sense for the guy to always pay. Now that things are on their way to being a bit more even, I’m happy to rework a system that has gone on long enough!
I'm a feminist who believes that *everyone* should hold doors for each other, etc. Why should doing gracious acts be reserved for men?
The corollary is, why should men bear more of the financial burden? If he has lots more money, have the first date in a place where she can afford to pay her half. If the relationship goes somewhere, than the various dimensions can be negotiated in the process.
@Mel: Now why would you think that! Everybody has a set of behaviors that make them feel better about who/what they are. But yes, I don't like the idea of being stuck in a H2 with a bunch of disenfranchised trophy wives. =)
The only thing I can say is that:
1. I don't necessarily believe in rules of dating.
2. Communication should pay the bill.
If this, and it probably is, is on the minds of a couple that go out, then they should discuss it beforehand and get any discomfort out of the way.--hey, maybe THIS can be a rule of dating? Communication.
Other than this, I really don't know as circumstances are never quite the same for all people all of the time.
p.s. I have given this answer without reading any previous comments (I didn't want to be influenced) :)
@Zechariah: I read your comment...then looked back at the first line and laughed out loud. haha! Genius! Is there such a thing as an appropriate whore? =)
Yes to fancy tea! =)
If you are serious with someone, go ahead and pay for them but in terms of dating, that is different.
For guys, too many of you buy dinner and gifts for women, all for the pleasure of hoping she will approve of you and accept you.
See the thing is this, you are pretty much paying on hoping to get sex, go get a escort instead.
I mean why waste your hard earned money or someone you may never see again?
If I really like the guy, then I pay the entire bill! Not only does this create an element of surprise and intrigue on his part it secures another date. When he insists on paying then I tell him that the next one is definitely on him thus creating a guarantee for the next escapade!
And if I don't like the guy...well, I just pay for my half and get the hell out of there pronto!:)
Seth, I always enjoy your posts! They are so much fun like a ping-pong ball!:)
@Henie: What, exactly, do you do with ping pong balls that makes them so much fun, Henie? =P Paying the entire bill can be a strange experience to spring on most guys. Let's do more of that! =)
But afterward I paid for our drinks at the bar.
Typically if I have no interest in the guy at all I insist on splitting the check.
Example: an Iraq vet once told me that he was "date raped" by a girl, because she bought dinner and drinks and so he felt like he had to sleep with her. I couldn't help myself, I flat out told him "That's not rape, that's feeling obligated based on silly social conventions. Sleeping with someone because they bought you something seems closer to prostitution than rape."
/rant
Penelope: As long as you're offering with a genuine willingness to chip in if you need to, I think that's solid area.
Annie: I'm not sure why a guy would ever tell somebody that. I can understand a guy telling one of his buddies that because he's embarrassed about sleeping with a certain girl...but to tell a girl that? Piggish.
I've been bought dinner and drinks by a woman before and I don't believe she got anything sexual out of it. We were just having fun and she'd warned me ahead of time that she was paying so I suppose I could have opted-out if I'd wanted to.
I love your rants, Annie. Don't end them! =)
Max: Nice plan! I'm a fan of lunch dates simply because you can actually get to know somebody without much of the stress that's attached to evening dates!
I am a bit of a prude I well not be having sex on the 1st 4th -or whatever the "rules" say- date.
And I don't want even the slightest sort of that guilty/obligated feeling. But I am pretty blunt so chances are I will have scared them off by the second date HAHA!
Guilt isn't any fun at all. I'm with you on that. Unless it's because you had 18 slices of chocolate cake...in which case I might feel guilty, but I'll laugh about it! =)
@Susan: That's the kicker. You've got to mean it! I owe you dinner at some point!
I'd hardly call that true intimacy which I think is sad.
I haven't been in the dating game as it were for quite some time, but I think whoever asks should pay, or if it's kind of a mutual thing, or there are mitigating factors of income the bill should be split.
I know I came into the relationship with my wife with no money whatsoever. She was doing okay.
We figured it out and built the rest together.
You were able to figure things out and make them work. That counts for a lot!
That being said, we spent a lot of time together at home cooking dinner, drinking wine, walking the dogs and such.
We didn't go out a lot, and then only to places that were inexpensive like putt-putt and such.
It sounds corny, but it didn't really matter what we did or where we went as long as we were together.
Maybe that doesn't sound corny after all...
You see the delema then? Most agree that communication is very important, yet we all can't agree on something fairly simple like who pays on a date and why.
I think the usual "Who invites pays" is a good general rule that can, if we all understand this rule, resolve the question and yet still allow wiggle room.
"Hey Seth, I know you invited me but I really would like to pay for this date, ok?"
No matter how you answer the problem is solved.
Bobby the purist :)
We said we'd be roommates if it didn't work out - ride out the lease so to speak. I think that was more something we said than what we actually believed would happen. What can I say, we just knew.
We had both been engaged to other people and "had to" move out of our respective residences. It just made sense to take the leap.
I've been told there's a screen play or book in there somewhere. Just not a project I've tackled yet.
I'm enjoying this little trip down memory lane though. Thanks!
I'm enjoying getting to know some of the crazy stories that have made up your life so far!
It takes a lot of heart to go with that "hunch" and leap into a relationship feet-first with your heart open.
You have my respect!
This seeming flip flop of male female roles was a whole lot of fun but I found myself wanting to revert to my chivalrous American upbringing. I would pay for the first day and we would rotate.
I agree with Tom that a lot of men pay in hopes of having her "owe" them and hopefully get sex but not all and it does not mean I will stop paying for the first date!
Unfortunately the man paying really is a part of western culture and to not role with it and make the best of it is as bad as putting ketchup to your sushi.
this underlines my post on how confused we all are as a country on who pays for the date. I'm just big on being gracious, thoughtful and aware... many of your readers were aware of uncomfortable pauses, situations and expectations and handled it graciously and THEN made the decision on whether or not they were going to go on date #2.
Personally and not as someone who writes a dating blog -- I look for generosity, respect and intent when deciding on a second date.
--Any guy who expects nooky because he bought something is off my reservation. Immediately.
--I'll admit to insisting on the split only when I am decidedly not interested in the guy.
--And when interested, I usually find a way to pay for something -- a coffee afterwords, the movie tickets, the taxi fare... something to acknowledge that I do not expect a free ride but am interested in seeing where it goes.
--The only rule I follow is that whoever initiates the date needs to expect to pay. And yes, I have asked guys out in the past AND payed for the whole date.
--And Seth, yes, I also almost ALWAYS offer to split. If he accepts, I do tend to assume that it was not a love connection and we are both on to the next.
Yes, I see how it is a "part of Western Culture" but like many aspects of our culture, I don't believe it is something that needs to continue.
The argument that something is a part of a culture has allowed us to neglect needed changes in many parts of the world to the detriment of millions and what should be our own deep shame.
@Kelli:
As long as there's a genuine offer to split the check, I think the point has been made that nobody is being bought.
However, you and many others say that you insist on splitting the check when you don't like the guy. Do you think this is a common enough practice to actually go in "the book of hints"?
Seth
Guys -- if you are arm wrestling a girl for the bill, you may have a problem... I'm jus' sayin'...
As a man, it has been my practice to split the dinner bill and then pay for coffee and dessert afterwards.
This seems to work because it allows both of us to participate in a dating gesture without making me resentful of paying for an expensive dinner and her feel strangely obligated.
And yes, if you are going to claim that women are equal to men, you can not have your cake and eat it too!
But in my mind, paying for the dessert and coffee is a necessary nod to the "tradition of Western culture" in which we unfortunately live and date in.
To the contrary, being last on the list is usually just as good as being first when it comes to having your comment read!
Paying for desert and coffee, just as you would for a friend or co-worker, is not a question of equality but simple nicety. I think many of us put a lot less weight on who pays for coffee and dessert than we do on who pays for dinner.
I like your plan. It allows you to start on even footing without any "debt" on either side while giving a bit of room for your old school charm to shine through in the end. Good for you! =)
I have had no problem letting women pay when they asked me out. As a male, I don't feel any less manly if I allow a woman to pay. In fact, it is flattering and feels nice to be treated once in a while. :-)
That being said, when a woman asked me out, if I accepted, I let her know upfront that a simple walk would be sufficient. That way, she wouldn't feel obligated to spend a lot of money to impress me.
I like how you make it clear that you need not be impressed right from the start. I think we'd all do very well to do that. =)
I've done a fair amount of asking myself and have no problem paying for dinner, drinks & tip.
If I'm not having a good time or I'm just totally uninterested in the person, I always suggest going Dutch.
"suggesting" going Dutch seems to be emerging as a common way of telling a date they suck.
Which is too bad because it blurs the line between independent and uninterested. It also reinforces my feeling that the pay-for-play mentality is far more deep-seated than most are willing to admit.
I'm a bigger fan of actually admitting to interest and building a relationship on a foundation of trust instead of churning through a fuck-and-leave machine because I'm scared of loving and losing.